Source: https://youtu.be/95La1DP_69U
I’m Mel Stewart and this is a GMM podcast.
Joining me today, Hunter Armstrong, Olympic champion, three-time Olympic medalist, breaking big news today.
He’s joining the enhanced games, but he’s racing clean, which raises a huge question.
Can you race clean at the Enhanced Games and still be eligible for World Aquatics events, World Championships, the Olympic Games?
We talked to Hunter about how he arrived at this decision.
We talked to Hunter about all of the financial hurdles that he’s had to overcome that brought him to this decision.
He speaks very plainly.
I think you’re going to appreciate this conversation.
Hunter Armstrong.
Buddy, how you doing?
I’m great.
How are you?
Um, I’m somebody who’s been consuming news.
I’ve been on ESPN today.
They broke your story.
Swim Swam followed up quickly thereafter and it is a big news day. you announced you’re competing at the enhanced games and you’re competing clean and that is that’s new.
That’s that’s a very new situation.
I think that you’re well aware that that the the the fan base in Swim has reacted not all but and and a lot of people have reacted negatively to the enhanced games because it’s so unusual.
And I’m curious as to what brought you to this decision.
Two things mostly.
It all boils down to my path to LA.
In order to do that, I I need funding.
I mean, I I have multiple jobs on the side.
I I run a real estate company.
I’m a contractor.
I’m teaching.
I’m coaching.
And it it’s not enough to afford living in the great city of Columbus, Ohio.
This place is expensive.
But truly I was faced with with a choice of do I get forced into retirement for lack of funding or do I take a unorthodox route and at least have a chance at continuing and standing on the podium on home soil.
You you mentioned jobs.
So what jobs?
So I’m a I’m a contractor.
So I I do like woodworking.
I fix stuff. if I can do a little bit of electrical.
But yeah, I I I own a real estate company, so I I buy and flip houses.
Some I hold on to to rent out.
I substitute teach and I’m coaching a club team.
And that is just not enough income for a single man to own a house in Columbus.
Let’s take a step back from here.
So you you you you you compete your entire life to be to reach the the the big stage to be on the Olympic platform.
You do that in Tokyo and you do that again in Paris.
Paris everyone is fresh in our minds. 4×100 free.
You swim this lights out 467 which was just a wow swim and a moment of exhilaration to pick up a silver medal on the on the medley.
You’re on top of the world 2024 summer.
What happened since then?
Because I think the perception is that after a moment like that, financially, you should be okay.
Yeah.
I mean, with with all due respect to my previous partners, I won’t drop names, but it it’s not too hard to find out because we pretty much can only have one partner in swimming, but I I was verbally assured in Paris that my contract would be renewed for another four years with a raise.
And so, I took that information.
I’m like, you know, I’m going to I think I’ve earned this.
I think I’ve earned security.
I think I’ve earned the right to feel safe and to start developing my life as an adult.
And so I I bought a house in Columbus and I bought two dogs and I started to build the life that when I was a kid was like, “This is what it’s going to look like when I’m an adult and when I’m a grown-up.” And it’s it’s no luxury.
It it’s a nice house, but I mean I I wasn’t irresponsible with anything except getting two dogs.
That was probably the worst decision I could have made.
That was a lot.
But around Octoberish, without even a phone call or email, my agent calls me and says, “Hey, they’re not going to resign you.” And so I just went from a an income that was good enough to buy a house to zero in an hour.
And we had touched on this in previous interviews, but I had no idea what I was going to do.
I I was faced with, oh my gosh, I’m going to lose everything and start my adult life in crazy debt.
And you know that that trend has kind of continued, not necessarily getting dropped, but I’m a trusting person.
And so when I work with somebody, I always assume that they will keep their word, I’ll keep my word.
And I’ve just consistently seen people pulling back funding or taking it away completely.
And I was pretty much faced with a harsh reality of all right, do you want to find a way to continue on the swimming path or are you going to give up, lose everything you’ve built, but you can go be a teacher full-time, but that Olympic dream is going to die if you don’t secure funding.
I I I don’t [snorts] think that was irresponsible of view.
I after my Olympics, I bought a house.
That was my perception and more contracts came and you have more metals and that was 30 years ago over 30 years ago where I I watched the market pretty closely.
The market was stronger in in the ‘9s and in 2000s and it it it it didn’t it it it had a had a cliff and and a few historic moments where it that changed and it hasn’t really recovered since.
But I I do think the perception that hey, I’ve got the medals.
There is an expectation at a certain level that that certain contracts and certain agreements will continue or more opportunity will continue.
That’s new.
I feel like this is a new thing.
This is this has been sort of in the current elite world of swimming.
This is kind of been the situation for six or seven years.
I don’t know.
Do you talk to your peers about this?
Not about enhanced, but I am not the only athlete that is going through this.
It is heavily affecting the postcolgiant athletes because we we do get funding from USA Swimming.
And that is great if you are in college or you’re renting an apartment, you don’t really have too many expenses.
But when you’re actually trying to be an adult and you have adult responsibilities, mortgages, and all of that extra stuff, the system we currently have in place just doesn’t really help that a ton.
No.
For the record, APA was flat.
The the athlete partnership agreement via USA Swimming was flat from 2010 to this year.
Kevin Ring’s the new CEO of USA Swimming.
Kevin Ring stepped in and said, “I’m changing that.
We’re we’re increasing that 15%, I think, that if I remember our reporting and it was what he’s like, this is what I can do right now.” And my intention is is to is to find other avenues of support.
But this is somebody who just came in trying to write a ship and trying to move support to athletes and we have a very short window to LA 2028.
So you’re in the middle and you’re like this big moment.
How am I going to how am I going to get there in in in in Los Angeles or at least have my shot at Los Angeles?
So you so you had to to really think this through and but your back was against the wall at the same time.
When when did you you know when did you know you’re like this is it.
This is my shot.
I’m I’m gonna do enhanced.
So, I mean, I felt pretty good about it, but I needed to make sure that I had all my ducks in a row because if I was wrong or if legal was wrong or if anybody that I was working with behind the scenes was wrong, then I lose my shot at LA.
And that was the whole reason I’m doing this.
And so I I spent a lot of time reading, you know, the code of conduct and the bylaw that World Aquatics posted, making sure that, hey, if I’m not breaking the rules and I’m competing clean, and you guys can still send testers anytime you want, why can’t I do both?
And we figured out that we can.
So, according to your reading of the code of conduct, you can pee clean. you’re still you you you still have the the opportunity to compete at world championships Olympic games inside the world quality ecosystem that’s your reading and it it just is there is there anything that you can’t do other than than you know using performance-enhancing drugs you know if you you can’t use the enhanced protocol but is there anything else that you have to be concerned about not not anything out of the ordinary it’s a general code of conduct that all athletes under world aquatics have to follow and most of that is just being a good person.
So, don’t one, don’t dope, but you know, don’t cause unnecessary trouble.
Every athlete in World Aquatics is held to these guidelines.
And so, as long as I continue to be myself and not cause any waves or lawsuits or anything crazy, then we should be good.
So, your reading of it is, and I and I I would have to refresh and read this again, and I should have before the podcast.
I know that Braden Keith has read it.
It is you have you have to be a good ambassador.
You have to be you can’t cause trouble.
And sounds like you can’t badmouth.
I don’t know why being good or bad has anything to do with with what you do in performance, but it’s their code.
You’re you’re you’re a part of the success and alumni of the of of world championships and in in the Olympic stage.
So, you know, nobody wants to badmouth.
They want to participate.
Although, I don’t think that has any I have opinions, but I’m going to keep those opinions to myself. the Okay, here’s a good question.
In in terms of peers, I know from I can’t I’m not going to name any names, but I can tell you that I’ve had a lot of phone calls from Olympic medalists asking me, can I compete clean?
And if I compete clean, can I go can I compete at world championship the Olympic Games?
And they are they’re concerned.
They’re afraid that if they do this, it will jeopardize their chance.
But they really want an answer.
I personally haven’t backchanled this to World Aquatics.
I haven’t asked that question.
Are you hearing from peers or are you hearing anything similar?
I’ve kept my participation as hush hush as I can just because you know if I did decide not to do it, I didn’t want to trouble any of my affiliates.
So I I’ve not heard any talk about other athletes wanting to do enhance.
But there is an inherent risk in doing this as the rules can be interpreted many different ways.
But the bylaw I actually I have it here.
Thought I had it here.
I have it somewhere.
So, I’ll have to paraphrase this.
But the key thing is it says relevant athletes are qualified by A and B.
I do not qualify for B because it says specifically that an athlete that joins the enhanced games while not under the rules and regulations of War Aquatics.
So, I don’t I don’t know if you experienced this, but we have similar rules with if you retire.
If I retire and I get pulled out of the doping doping control, if I decide to come back, I have a six-month period before they will allow me to compete where they can test me to make sure that I didn’t do anything in my retirement that was performance-enhancing.
So, that’s the same kind of thing here.
If an athlete were to go to the enhanced games and then later try to come back, you can’t.
But since I never left World Aquatics rules and they have been testing me since 2021, they’ve never had a time where I could have doped.
You are legitimately clean.
Yes, sir.
You’re legitimately clean.
This is a good moment just to step in.
So, Swim Swam doesn’t have a a financial affiliation with World with excuse me, with Enhanced Games.
We are following this journalistically.
We’re trying to share facts.
We were trying to get more and more information and we know this story is going to evolve.
We wondered if this moment where would happen where a clean athlete steps up and says they’re racing.
In those conversations enhance game has shared some stuff with us on background that that because we’re trying to crystallize the picture of what this is and what it’s about and and I should share it.
There’s there’s a perception there.
Everyone’s wondering what the business is and this is this is squarely in the biotech space with direct to consumer teleaalth you know as a platform they’ve soft launched that it’s already making money they have a valuation of $1.2 2 billion.
There’s a potential to raise an additional 200 million.
They filed for their S4 registration with the SEC.
They’ve been approved to trade on the New York Stock Exchange under the symbol ENHA.
Some people might know all of that.
Some people might know pieces of that.
This is new information.
The the cap table includes 30 investors.
All the news has been that it’s Donald Trump Jr. and it’s Peter Thiel, the founder of Palunteer.
Turns out that’s not true.
They are investors.
They’re among a lot of investors.
They are by no means the biggest the biggest investors.
There are many other there are other bigger investors in the enhanced games and there’s no political affiliation with this.
People were saying it was MAGA because it was Donald Trump Jr.
President Trump’s son and because it was Peter Teal and that’s that’s that’s just not what the data shows us.
And and Swim Swam, you know, we’ve been trying to piece this out.
We’ve reported the same thing.
So, I wanted to correct the record on it.
You know, and it this this opens up all sorts of questions.
You know, you’re trying to make money now.
You’re doing this, but this also it impacts you in the marketplace.
This is, you know, you you do clinics, you coach, where do you train?
Because there’s there’s a stigma around this.
How’s that going to impact your life?
It definitely has impacted it, but every action has consequences.
And so I spent a lot of time making pros and cons lists and working with my therapist and attorneys to make sure that I can be as much damage control as I can because I can only control me.
I want to continue to be a good role model and a good person and a good ambassador for World Aquatics and USA swimming as well as enhanced.
I don’t think those have to be mutually exclusive, but I can’t control the perception of the public.
I I can say until my face is blue that I’m not going to be taking any performance-enhancing substances or banned procedures, whatever it may be.
But a coach may not care, and you know, I I respect that.
I understand that.
But I can only control my actions and hope that people will listen and understand why I made the decisions that I made.
Where are you training now that you made the decision?
What’s your training situation look like here?
In a couple weeks, I will be going out to Abu Dhabi to train with enhanced.
And when I get back, my goal is still to train at Ohio State.
Whether that is with the team or not is to be determined.
But again, it it’s a very difficult situation, not only from an athlete, but everybody that’s involved with me as an athlete because every college is a USA swimming team.
And so if all of the research and everything that I’ve done is wrong, Ohio State has a massive liability by letting me train with them because if I do get banned, you can’t coach a banned athlete or you will lose your job.
So, we’re just I’m going to go to Abu Dhabi and train where I know I can train and that’ll give this some breathing room and see how everybody actually handles this once it’s official.
You’re racing clean.
Yes.
And I’m racing clean.
Our audience is, like I said, has reacted.
Not everybody, but there’s been a lot of negative reactions.
But I it’s hard for me to think I don’t know.
I’m I’m assuming they’re thinking what I’m thinking, which and I’m curious.
How would a clean athlete do against the enhanced athletes?
And I and I think there’s a there is an entertainment value in and and it’s like, hey, this is the clean, tried and true, a 100% gradea Olympian.
They’re going against enhanced and I think that people would like to know who’s going to win.
I’ve had those conversations with with fans and friends and they said yes, they’re curious as well.
You’re racing.
You’re going to be racing Sean Sean Ryan.
Do you know who else is in the field?
Um, for my specific events, not really.
I I don’t know the whole roster.
A couple of them have reached out.
I I’ve spoken to Cody.
I’ve spoken to Sean.
But I’ll meet all of them here soon.
But no, I mean, I I’m looking forward to trying something new.
And there’s only four lanes in this pool that they’re building.
Or maybe it’s already built.
I know it’s uh coming here in May, but whoever is in those other three lanes, doesn’t matter.
I’m going to race my best.
And maybe I win, maybe I don’t, but it’s it’s all in good fun, truth be told.
Enhance Games hasn’t released this information.
We’ve asked the questions.
It’s but they they keep promising.
No, these the field will be full.
So per per event, the field will be full.
They’re going to they’re going to fill the pool.
Just so there’s a reminder, this event, the enhanced games, it launches May 21st.
It goes through the 24th, Memorial Day weekend.
It’s in Las Vegas, Nevada at Resorts World Las Vegas.
It’s on the Las Vegas strip.
My understanding is that it’s going to be an an incredible platform that they’re that they’re capturing all the media from with a pool, track and field, and weightlifting events.
And it’s it sounds like it’s going to be just suites around it like just, you know, for high high netw worth individuals and celebrities to attend.
That’s the way it’s been described.
And uh so it sounds interesting.
It’s certainly different from a from a sports platform that that we’ve seen in the sport of swimming and definitely different.
So my question for you is you got a short window, buddy.
Yeah.
What what are you going to do?
I mean the big questions are you have a short window in training.
Your your your training is still sort of tenuous.
You’re going to train where you know you can train while certain answers and legal questions are are making their way through and maturating.
And you’ve [clears throat] got to be on the hunt for what tech suit you’re going to wear because that’s the one thing you can do.
Do you have Have you ever worn full body tech?
No, I’ve never seen a a super suit with my own eyes.
Only time I have really seen a supersuit is the 2008 Beijing relay on YouTube.
That’s interesting.
Wow.
I mean, to this day, I have never watched an Olympics, summer or winter, and so I’ve only ever seen it online.
I don’t know who’s going to make them.
That’s something that Enhanced is doing.
But for the contemporary side of the sport, I’m gonna continue racing in the suits that I like.
Has anyone told you that when you race in a fullbodied suit that it does change your stroke and you do swim differently?
Oh, I have not heard that.
It makes sense, but I saw in Abu Dhabi they all wore the super suits and were doing a little race day thing.
So, fortunately, I will not be swimming in the enhanced games for the first time in a super suit.
I will get a little bit of practice with it.
Just to be clear, you are going to race in a supersuit May 21st through the 24th.
Unless I get told that I can’t.
Obviously, my my main goal is to stay eligible.
I cannot imagine a supersuit being the factor that takes me out, but it is my intent to wear a supersuit.
You’re fine to wear a supersuit.
And it’s a that that’s you’re you’re not that’s pretty clear cuz this is an exhibition platform.
It’s outside.
This is a professional platform.
The the the tech suits.
Oh, just 2009 World Championships in Rome.
There was I remember the first day.
It’s after 2008.
This is when the tech suit market exploded.
There were so many new suits and everyone looked like they were walking around in in space suits and there would be that bell when they would break a world record.
I remember that first day.
It’s like, “Oh my god, I can’t believe our world record was broken.” with every swim.
This will never happen again.
By day three, four, that bell was going off and people were like going the world record.
It’s like watching Gretch and Walsh swim.
It’s well not not this not really.
Cuz at a certain point, everyone’s like, “Yeah, it’s going to be a world record every time.” And it’s clearly the suits.
And coaches lost their mind.
They were like, “Oh, these are cheat suits.” The suits float.
The compression buoyancy people, you know, you bury your head a little more to pop your your your hips up higher and you just like a motorboat.
So I in my conversations with friends and with with fans that I’ve talked to just at random and saying, “Hey, what do you think?” And you know, talk to them across a lot of topics.
This comes up and everyone’s like they’re curious about it.
Many of them think that clean athletes in tech will beat enhanced athletes.
I’ve heard that consistently.
The top that that top talent elites in a tech suit will beat most of the crew that are enhanced. that’s that’s an opinion and they’re kind of, you know, they’re curious as to whether or not that that thesis is is going to be correct.
I mean, we’ll see.
I I’ll do my best, but honestly, I’ve seen a lot of a little bit on Twitter, which I guess isn’t Twitter, but during the the Paris games, they’re like, we should just put an average person out there so we have perspective of how fast these athletes really are.
And I feel like that’s kind of what I’m doing with enhanced.
It is what you’re doing.
And it’s so I’m assuming that the the financial situation is is solid.
That’s something that Cody has been he’s he’s disclosed as much as he can.
I asked him on camera, “Hey man, share your contract.” And and he said he wouldn’t.
Would you like to share your contract with the enhanced games with us?
But Oh, I I totally would, but it’s on my other computer.
That’s what I thought you were going to say.
I just want everybody to know I asked you the question, but he did share that it’s good. costs are covered and that it’s good for him and and his reasons were were very clear in terms of the decision that that you had to come to and you felt, you know, it’s clearly your back was against the wall.
It’s clear that this is this is your one, this is your Hail Mary.
It’s like, hey, financial, I know this is going to help me get to LA 2028 financially.
You had to weigh you had to weigh the optics of this and it’s not just for for this one quad.
This is for the rest of your life. for the rest of your life, this becomes a part of the of the Hunter Armstrong memoir.
I think you I think that’s landed because it sounds like you talked to a therapist about it, but I’d like to know did was there a moment where that hit you?
You’re like, you know, for the rest of my life, this is going to be one of those chapters.
Yeah, I mean, it was it was not an easy decision to make because nobody has done it in swimming.
There there are unenhanced track athletes, probably a couple unenhanced weightlifters, but I’m the first swimmer to do it.
And if we look at the worst case scenario, I get banned.
That doesn’t just affect my swimming career.
That that is an attack on my character, on my morals, and it also can it disqualifies me from coaching.
I cannot do anything with USA Swimming, and that includes being a part of the USA swimming foundation.
It impacts my clinics and my my love for working with kids.
It can even impact my dream job as just being a teacher.
And so this has such a greater impact than just the swimming because all I ever wanted to do was, you know, help the next generation and be a teacher and work with kids in swimming and teach kids to swim because that saves lives.
And all of that can be taken away with this decision.
Is is Thank you for answering that.
That that thoughtful.
It sounds like you’ve you’ve this you’ve you’ve ruminated on this a lot.
What if what if what if World Aquatics says, “Hey, you you you you hung out with with you hung out on the enhanced side and that’s too much for us.
You you can’t participate at Worlds or the Olympic Games.” Is is there a scenario where you could do what you’re doing year-over-year clean, you know, with within the enhanced games and continue your career?
Is that something that that makes sense to you?
Would you want to?
I mean, potentially if if that side of the sport is no longer an option to me and I I still have that that drive to strive for success and, you know, let’s see how many world records I can break in a super suit, then I I could continue.
But there would there would be no proof that I’m [snorts] not doping.
I I have to ask this question was a followup to that question stating upfront from the the opening premise of this entire conversation which is that you’re racing clean but if you didn’t have the Olympics as an option and you stayed in this ecosystem and race clean is there a future where you would consider hey I’ve done this a while I’ll do the protocol now not only morally but also from a a health perspective I don’t put anything in my body that is not natural I’m I I want to have a long life for my one day wife and kids.
And so even if I was allowed to dope, encouraged to dope, you could have offered me millions and millions of dollars to join this enhanced protocol, I I would never do it.
We’re going to follow up with you at a certain point and uh you know unpack your experience if you’ll come back on and because we want to know what the experience was like and and and what you thought about it because you’re also competing with athletes who are going to be an ants and you’re going to get to know them intimately and why they made this choice.
And I think what you’re going to hear from them is they’re doing this because they think it’s it’s a a piece of that story is that they think they’ll actually live longer from the knowledge they learn and what they gain.
And that is entirely the drive of this business platform.
So I’d be curious as to what your experience is in the future cuz I I would bring that question back to you.
It might still be the same.
I don’t know.
But uh I I would like to to touch on that a lot of the perception of enhanced games has been, you know, we’re going to juice them up with everything and like experimental stuff.
Let’s see how fast the human body can really go.
I do not know what athletes are taking, but through my conversations with enhanced, all of it’s FDA approved.
All of it’s under medical supervision.
And I’d say the like they’re enhanced is allowing banned substances, but banned substances doesn’t mean it’s bad.
Insulin is a banned substance.
If you’re a diabetic, you need that.
There there are some allergy medications.
So, I have seasonal allergies and I’m allergic to cats and my girlfriend’s cat is currently in the house.
So, you’ve seen me rubbing my eyes, but there are some allergy medications that I’m not allowed to take because it contains a banned substance.
So, enhanced is just allowing athletes to do what is best for their health.
I mean, they could be taking anabolic steroids.
I don’t know.
But they’re, at least my perception of their platform is we want to give athletes the autonomy to do what is best for them.
They’re going to share more about that there.
It’s they’ll share more about that in the future.
You know, exactly what they did because it’s frankly they’re selling it.
But it’s a I know that there’s certain things that athletes could take that would they know would would really improve their performance and they’re saying no to them.
And uh so I think we’re going to have some more disclosure around that as as we get closer cuz they’re going to say, “Hey, they’ve done X, Y, and Z.
Maybe they’ve done testosterone or they’re they’re they’re they’re doing we like we all know they’re doing creatine.
We all know they’re we all know the protocol below the line that’s that is that’s not enhanced.
It’s I don’t even take creatine.
I take no substances.” Yeah.
I I I you know, I did not either.
I think a lot of there are a lot of athletes who are like, I don’t do any supplements.
You know, if you can’t get it in your food, your your diet isn’t right.
Well, it’s I I have conflicted feelings about this interview.
You know, I I look at you as an Olympic peer and as an Olympic champion and and I’m upset that that you you know, I I feel like you deserved a a different story post Paris.
This is an unusual pathway and an opportunity for you and it’s and it’s it’s going to offer you some some financial security and and a path to the next Olympic Games.
I think like everybody else, we’re all sort of waiting to see how this is going to play out again.
You’re clean.
Yes.
I I’ve made it very clear within my contract with Enhanced that whenever they post it cuz I don’t know their timeline on that.
I imagine with ESPN already coming out and this that it will hit, but I I don’t know the day.
But I make it very clear that I am not a doping athlete. the the phrasing gets weird and I’m sure the public’s going to not like this, but I’m an enhanced athlete just like Michael Andrew would be a Toyota athlete if he was sponsored by Toyota.
I’m an athlete belonging to enhanced games, not a athlete that is enhanced.
But the vocabulary I will be referred to as an enhanced athlete but a non-enhanced beard. you know, they they when we when we engaged them just for background and understanding to try to figure out what this was, they they said early on that they were, you know, they really wanted athletes who would be enhanced athletes who didn’t do the protocol, that they didn’t do the performance-enhancing drugs and and that they they they wanted to have that story and which I thought was interesting and creative and certainly added to the mix.
But you are the first in swimming and you’re making history in this in in this unusual world that we live in and uh will be interesting to see how it comes out.
Would you come back, you know, after this this you you you know, you’ve you’ve been to the games in Las Vegas and we you know, we we want to talk to you and have you unpack it for us.
Absolutely.
All right.
Thanks, buddy.
Good talking to you.
