Times from Junior National Cup Called Into Question

At least 5 National Age Group Records have been broken this week at the TYR Junior National Cup, and those times have been called into question as a result of a timing discrepancy. SwimSwam has heard from several independent people who have hand-timed videos of the swims, and all of those people independently drew a similar conclusion: that the times on their watches were showing as 4-tenths of a second slower than the official results are showing.

We have hand-timed a number of the videos ourselves, and likewise have consistently come up with times slower than the official results. Videos of many races from the meet can be seen on James Foster’s YouTube channel here.

We have notified USA Swimming of the discrepancy, and they said that they are going to look into it. We have also reached out to Daktronics, the company responsible for the new video display at the Liberty University Natatorium, for more information on what could cause a delay of this size. A review of the backup times could help trend any patterns over the large number of races swum at a meet of this size and establish better evidence than any race can individually.

One commenter who previously says they had an issue with a Daktronics system showing delayed results says that he received the following advice from Daktronics. Ironically, the time difference in that scenario, .39 seconds, is almost exactly the result that hand-times are getting. We have reached out to Liberty to verify which timing system/timing box combination they are using, and which port that the timing system is connected with.

The same natatorium recently hosted an NCAA last chance qualifying meet, where 4 women earned their qualifying standards for the NCAA Championships (along with 2 men, though those times from East Carolina were later invalidated for unrelated reasons, with the NCAA deciding that they weren’t in ‘bona fide’ competition).

See that below.

Daktronics Start boxes provide 2 sockets for connection to the various AOE Timing systems available. It is imperative the correct socket is used depending upon the type of timing system being used. “Daktronics would like to state; when connecting the HS200 horn start, there are two options, normally Open and Normally Closed, labeled Daktronics and Other. It is imperative the start cable is connected to Daktronics – normally open [when connected to Daktonics equipment] However if the system were to be connected to other – normally closed, Daktronics would agree it would reasonable to expect a time quicker of approx -0.39 seconds. We would like to define this as: Normally Closed – when the Starter depresses the microphone the ‘contact’ is opened, this will sound the ‘beep’ of the horn and alert the swimmers. However the timer will not start until the signal pulse is then closed. A normal tone (long tone) pulse is 0.396 seconds, therefore resulting in times consistently 0.39 seconds quicker.

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Lee
6 years ago

For my sons races the times were accurate , by his coach with his stop watch and by re watching the video recording and timing. So I do hope that they don’t just spread a time across all the swims , that would be unfair and full due diligence is required. Swimmers vary meet by meet it’s a totally natural thing so please stop all this over analysis of meet by meet performance.

Lane hog
6 years ago

there is one winner from this….James foster’s YouTube channel. Plenty of clicks from us to earn him a few bucks from this debacle of a meet. If the times/records up until last nights final count, I’ll lose my faith in USA Swimming ( not that haven’t done things recently to already do that).

Brock the Breastsroker
6 years ago

Dressel would’ve been a 17.2 at this meet

NOBODY
6 years ago

The meet ran 2 pools today. The pool with the womens’ events seemed to have accurate times (based on hand-timing videos).

SensibleSwimMom
Reply to  NOBODY
6 years ago

I was timing in the women’s pool. Every heat was off. The 50 Free was ridiculous.

Imusbeswimming
6 years ago

Daktronics is the leaat reputable and a lower cost alternative. Why on earth design a system to start after ths audible horn has concluded?

BaldingEagle
Reply to  Imusbeswimming
6 years ago

That system works very well, IMO. I worked with that system for a long time.

It worked well for me because I READ THE DIRECTIONS. Exceedingly simple. I don’t get where the confusion is in how to plug in the cables, especially since there are diagrams. The person who set this up either can’t read, or can’t follow directions.

DrSwimPhil
Reply to  BaldingEagle
6 years ago

You’re assuming they were working under pure intentions….

Kirk Nelson
Reply to  Imusbeswimming
6 years ago

As explained in the story, it’s a compatibility issue. There are two types of start signals, and the Daktroniks system provides inputs for both of them, but this leads to problems if the wrong connection is used.

Lane hog
6 years ago

Proof of the fail was also in the 100 back. Foster, Grender,etc…anyone that has watched them swim know they never split their 100 back at or over 2 seconds difference. I hope USA swimming does something about this. 22.2&24.4…from an amazing 200 backstroke swimmer.

Lane hog
6 years ago

I feel bad for the kids that are swimming the 50s that will not go faster than this time for more than a year! It is hard to drop more than a half second for swimmers at this level. And I guess this all makes sense…right on the seed times for the 100, some right on or slightly different for 200s but crushing in the 50! Hopefully the kids get great scholarships out of these 50s and this meet performance. If this keeps up I want to take my kids to this me next year.

swimmer
Reply to  Lane hog
6 years ago

You want to take your kids to a meet where they can cheat their way to a faster time than they actually deserve?

Lane hog
Reply to  swimmer
6 years ago

No tongue in cheek. Sorry you didnt get the sarcasm through a post. The scholarship comment was also me being facetious. Why would I take kids to a meet with times that wouldn’t count?

Jake from State Farm
Reply to  swimmer
6 years ago

Lane Hog is merely stating what every sprinter and engaged swim parent is thinking that is paying attention to these results. In other words, let me (or my kid) get a few swims in with that timing system if my peers are that I’m being compared too are. .4 for elite high school aged sprinters is huge when it comes to recruiting rankings.
We were laughing at your kinda sarcasm LH

Swimparent
Reply to  Lane hog
6 years ago

My teenager swam the 50 today and did swim faster than the seed time even after adding back in 3/10. There was also a problem on the A final where 2 swimmers dived in when the starter called “stand” & all were allowed to swim. If they messed up on the start the entire heat should have been taken off of the blocks and started a couple of minutes later. It was not fair to the field.

Bertie
6 years ago

I was a timer in lane 4 last night and my manual times were consistently higher than the board, definitely there is something wrong with the timing system. The lady in the next lane was experiencing the same. My impression was that the pads were too sensitive and the wave was activating them just prior to the touch.

About Braden Keith

Braden Keith

Braden Keith is the Editor-in-Chief and a co-founder/co-owner of SwimSwam.com. He first got his feet wet by building The Swimmers' Circle beginning in January 2010, and now comes to SwimSwam to use that experience and help build a new leader in the sport of swimming. Aside from his life on the InterWet, …

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